Talk:Product of Infernal Dalliance (3.5e Feat)
Balance Wouldn't this feat be Fighter-level all on its own? --Ghostwheel 07:54, December 30, 2009 (UTC) : Depends on how you look at it. The feat itself is literally giving you access to other feats and classes; which would imply it being made against the whole 'vacuum' whatever the hell thing; as it gives access to powerful classes and feats (by Fighter standards at least). But, even then it still gives you more than a Fighter Level feat would give in natural weapons (one extra attack always, depending on what you take) and Cold/Fire Resistance 5. If you take it in a vacuum, it's teetering on Fighter/Rogue; otherwise it's Wizard all the way. --TK-Squared 11:46, December 30, 2009 (UTC) :: Agreed--though let's take Incantatrix for example; it requires Iron Will to get into it, and is very high on the wizard tier's range of power. Would that make Iron Will a wizard-level feat? See the analogy I'm trying to make? :-3 --Ghostwheel 13:16, December 30, 2009 (UTC) ::: Except Iron Will is not specifically designed to let you into Incantatrix. It's just a byproduct of the prestige class itself. Product of Infernal Dalliance specifically notes that you get access to these feats. It's like a hopping stone into ROARICANBREATHFIREANDTELEPORTATWILL. You could take Iron Will even if you're not going to persist your spells all day long (for some reason), but are you going to take a feat that says TAKE THESE OTHER FEATS if you're not going to take them? I'm not disagreeing with you, per se; the feat, in on and of itself, is not very good; this is true (although an extra Natural Weapon is nice, it doesn't really give you anything fantastic). But, the question would be if the balance point is to take into consideration the feat specifically gives you access to other feats as noted in it's contents. --TK-Squared 14:03, December 30, 2009 (UTC) :::: I think I see what you mean, but then... when do we take feats as they appear on their own (eg, in a vacuum), and when do we think about what they could count as fulfilling the prereqs for something? --Ghostwheel 14:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC) ::::: This one is specifically designed to give you access to something more and nothing else, so I'd say this is a pretty clear-cut case. Let's leave it to those clear-cut cases. Surgo 16:22, December 30, 2009 (UTC) :::::: Forgot that this could get subtypes like baatezu for a bunch of benefits... wowy. --Ghostwheel 04:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::::::I'm not sure you're intended to receive the benefits of said subtypes... you just receive the subtype, or at least that's how I would interpret it, otherwise the energy resistance parts are somewhat redundant. -- Jota 06:41, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::The guys who designed the feat have indicated the interpretation where you get the resistances is the correct one. And may have also indicated that the other one is right. <_< I've always seen it interpreted as getting those benefits as well. In any case, those parts of the Baatezu subtype et al are about as inherent to the subtype as the Immunity to Fire and Vulnerability to Cold of the Fire subtype - take that as you will. --Quantumboost 06:54, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::: Resistances, telepathy, seeing in magical darkness--oh my! --Ghostwheel 06:55, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Oh, and it does appear that Demodand-subtype Products care about the Fire or Cold Resistance, since that subtype doesn't grant either. But yeah, this feat is a really nice one to have under that interpretation, if only because it makes fighting things with elemental damage and hanging out on the Elemental Plane of Fire a lot more tolerable (though not much more tolerable, since it is the worst place in the multiverse). --Quantumboost 07:03, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::Frank has explicitly said "you get all the benefits of the subtype" is the correct interpretation. Surgo 07:06, April 25, 2010 (UTC)